Sonja + Conan

[kngdavid01]

There have been many Sonja titles through the years, and even more incarnations of Conan that have come and go. Both seem to have veteran fan-bases, and are able to attract a few modern comic fans briefly during each new generation; but sadly both series seem to have limited half-lives, at least when compared to the long-standing comic icons of Marvel and D.C. that have steadily sold books for five or more decades. Yet these characters are older, and can still attract fans.
The solution to the problem of intermittent interest in Howard's creations is, I think to combine them. There needs to be a comic series in which Sonja and Conan are permanently a team. In numerous Conan stories, the two of them temporarily work together, before Sonja decides Conan is too protective and clubs him over the head to steal his loot. Stories about this period in the lives of both characters could be expanded upon and developed.
There's no definitive reason why Sonja must bonk Conan and run away, that was just a decision made by Marvel Comics' editors. They could have an extended partnership, or more stories could be developed about a relatively short length of time in which they traveled together, and the book would include equal billing for both of them.
There could be considerable action, and emotional tension between Sonja's unacknowledged desire for Conan, and her accursed Oath; Not to mention Conan's open desire for Sonja, but his unwillingness to Jeoparodize their partnership for a mere roll in the hay. Of course, there could be story arcs where the two separate, but they will come together again to thwart some malignant evil or secure some spectacular treasure.
In this, the fan-bases of both characters would be combined to a greater extent than before, and hopefully perpetuate a longer-lasting series. But the pivotal questions remain:

What should be the title?

Would this require one license, or two?

[Arvandor]

What's preventing this is legal trademark wrangles that have become so convoluted that they'll likely never be sorted out. Such a series will never happen now - which I agree is unfortunate.

[terryallenuk]

Apart from the licencing differences Paradox , the owners of Conan , have stated that they are only interested in keeping the character tied to the Howard stories , ie not adapting any pastiche work or tie-ing in with the old Marvel stories . As Red Sonja is not a true Howard character , being a creation of Roy Thomas based on a non-Conan creation , there seems no chance of appearances together .

Although _I_wouldn't mind them appearing in a story out of continuity with the on-going books as a "one-off" , especially with it being Conan's 75th/Sonja's 35th anniversary's this year.

Although Sonja's appearances have been limited over the years , Conan _has_ been published near continuously since 1970 . The only "blip" was because Marvel decided to give up their licensed properties , including Conan in 2000 , which Joe Quasada admits was a mistake , and DH picking it up in 2002 .

Terry

The Robert E Howard Comics Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheREHcomicsgroup/
READ THE CONAN NEWSPAPER STRIP AT
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheREHcomicsgroup2/

[Wandering Barbarian]

Although Sonja's appearances have been limited over the years , Conan _has_ been published near continuously since 1970 . The only "blip" was because Marvel decided to give up their licensed properties , including Conan in 2000 , which Joe Quasada admits was a mistake , and DH picking it up in 2002 .

Terry
In a way it was a good decision. Marvel did a pathetic job with Conan in the 90's. Those limited series were horrible and the feeble attempts to kick start the series couple of times was a half-ass attempt.

Darkhorse has done a terrific job with the main Conan series, reviving the character in comics with a boom. Same, however, cannot be said about their spinoffs.

[kngdavid01]

It's not quite correct to say that Sonja isn't a R.E.H. character, she is indeed. But she appeared in a lesser known story that was set in the 'real' world. During Howard's adaptation of the Battle of Vienna in 1632 when the Ottoman Turks were driven from Europe. Except that 'Sonya' was Russian, instead of Hyrkanian. But the same appearance, abilities, and motivations apply. She was essentially identical; except that she would have had access to muskets. The name escapes me for now, but it was a Howard story; just like all the Conan stories. Sonj(y)a was his idea and creation. Though it was not Howard's idea to put her in the same world as Conan, but there's no doubt she's one of his.

[terryallenuk]

It's not quite correct to say that Sonja isn't a R.E.H. character, she is indeed. But she appeared in a lesser known story that was set in the 'real' world. During Howard's adaptation of the Battle of Vienna in 1632 when the Ottoman Turks were driven from Europe. Except that 'Sonya' was Russian, instead of Hyrkanian. But the same appearance, abilities, and motivations apply. She was essentially identical; except that she would have had access to muskets. The name escapes me for now, but it was a Howard story; just like all the Conan stories. Sonj(y)a was his idea and creation. Though it was not Howard's idea to put her in the same world as Conan, but there's no doubt she's one of his.

Perhaps "true" wasn't the right word , probably "pure" would have been better after all Sonja is a combination of Howard and Thomas , whereas Sonya is just Howard . The story is The Shadow of the Vulture which has appeared recently in a a number of books . For those who want to check it out see http://www.howardworks.com/storysa.htm#shad6

Terry

The Robert E Howard Comics Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheREHcomicsgroup/
READ THE CONAN NEWSPAPER STRIP AT
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheREHcomicsgroup2/

[Wandering Barbarian]

Roy Thomas used Howard's Sonya character as an inspiration and created Sonja in the Conan era. So, in a sense, it is really Thomas character but inspired by Howard's Sonya character...

[terryallenuk]

Roy Thomas used Howard's Sonya character as an inspiration and created Sonja in the Conan era. So, in a sense, it is really Thomas character but inspired by Howard's Sonya character...

Yes , I agree . Don't really think DE's credit is correct on their inside front covers . They should credit both REH and Thomas.

Terry

The Robert E Howard Comics Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheREHcomicsgroup/
READ THE CONAN NEWSPAPER STRIP AT
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheREHcomicsgroup2/

[Raymar3d]

How about a one-shot miniseries with Dark Horse now that the rights issues have been cleared up?

I know I'd buy it. I enjoyed the Red Sonja / Claw series enough to buy all the Claw stories that followed. Sadly that series was cancelled. Interestingly, it's demise sort of fit with the Kulan Gath conquering the world tale, though only peripherally.

Perhaps Dynamite can get the rights to Claw, and have him be a semi-recurring character in the Sonja books, or in Savage Tales?

I'd buy it.

[ezwind72]

I'd buy a Red Sonja/Conan crossover. It would be great to see them fighting together again. If Dynamite can work out deals for crossovers with DC, Marvel, & Top Cow they should be able to work something out with Dark Horse. Couldn't they?

[terryallenuk]

Put me down for a yes vote too.

Terry

The Robert E Howard Comics Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheREHcomicsgroup/
READ THE CONAN NEWSPAPER STRIP AT
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheREHcomicsgroup2/

[Raymar3d]

I'd buy a Red Sonja/Conan crossover. It would be great to see them fighting together again. If Dynamite can work out deals for crossovers with DC, Marvel, & Top Cow they should be able to work something out with Dark Horse. Couldn't they?

Exactly! :)

This gives us the best of both worlds. We still get to see the occasional team-up/rivalry, and they get to keep their licenses. :)

And they both get to make some big $$$$ cuz lots of people will buy it. :)

And, since Sonja's vow is currently... in question... it could be a very interesting team up, heh....

http://www.boomvavavoom.com/image/redsonja/redsonjaandconancolorbenes.jpg

[mjacobson]

I'd buy it. But I think the hang-up is with Paradox, not with Dark Horse. Anyhow I hope we start seeing Sonja in some more Hyborian Age specific locales.

Nice pic, by the way.

[Raymar3d]

I'd buy it. But I think the hang-up is with Paradox, not with Dark Horse. Anyhow I hope we start seeing Sonja in some more Hyborian Age specific locales.

Nice pic, by the way.


You can credit boomvavavoom with finding it and posting it. I just linked to it because it is perfect for the concept of a new team up. :)

[P~~]

Exactly! :)


http://www.boomvavavoom.com/image/redsonja/redsonjaandconancolorbenes.jpg

I'm going to PUKE! :mad:

[Raymar3d]

Heh, guess not everyone considers the idea acceptable. :)

Let it be clear, I prefer the character remain intact. But if she is free of her vow, I have no objection to seeing her and Conan flirt with the idea a little, and maybe or maybe not end up together briefly.

They're so much alike, they couldn't get along for long, either way, in my opinion. But after 30 years, a little consideration of the concept isn't a bad idea, really.

[P~~]

Heh, guess not everyone considers the idea acceptable. :)

Let it be clear, I prefer the character remain intact. But if she is free of her vow, I have no objection to seeing her and Conan flirt with the idea a little, and maybe or maybe not end up together briefly.

They're so much alike, they couldn't get along for long, either way, in my opinion. But after 30 years, a little consideration of the concept isn't a bad idea, really.

I feel the same sometimes but I have to admit, I'm sort of with the fan base that Conan is not good enough for her and she needs someone more than he. I guess the question is what would be more than conan as we all have our own ideas. I like the idea of someone who challenges Sonja more mentally but is also a good challenge physically. Conan to me seems nothing more than a slab of meat.

This peice of art to me is actually great! But the content I dont like. I would like it more if they were in this position and Conan was holding the sword to her cleavage like not only did he get past her guard but he also go behind her. Then with her looking back over her should at him is more like "You've won, now make me the women I am."

It still has that innocent look to it yet the yearning for both of them. I know not all would agree with this but the point would be clear. Then again my darker side of heroine peril could be clogging my mind, lol.

[Raymar3d]

Conan to me seems nothing more than a slab of meat.

Wow, have you ever actually read any Conan stuff? I mean aside from the movies and the TV Series, have you any real knowledge of his character?

Conan has brains as well as honor and courage. While yes, he is a 'barbarian,' he's no more barbaric than Sonja herself in the grand scheme. I don't mean to be insulting at all to you, because you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but in my estimation, having read every REH tale of him, plus all but 5 of the expanded novels, and hundreds of comics and magazines about his adventures, I feel I can safely say he's far more than a piece of meat.

If you haven't given his character a chance, I suggest picking up the collection of Savage Sword of Conan that came out recently. They adapted some of Robert E. Howard's stories in it, and Sonja also appears in one story. You'll see Conan has a lot of brains as well as brawn in the original writing of his tales. The movies do not do the character any real justice, though they're better than the TV series by light-years.

Much as I enjoy the Arnie version of Conan, he's not true Conan. He's nowhere near as tough or as cunning, though he had some moments. Anyhow, to each their own, I suppose.

I could see Sonja with a more sophisticated man as well, it's just that Conan is a favorite of mine, so I guess I'm biased. :)

[Raymar3d]

This peice of art to me is actually great! But the content I dont like. I would like it more if they were in this position and Conan was holding the sword to her cleavage like not only did he get past her guard but he also go behind her. Then with her looking back over her should at him is more like "You've won, now make me the women I am."

It still has that innocent look to it yet the yearning for both of them. I know not all would agree with this but the point would be clear. Then again my darker side of heroine peril could be clogging my mind, lol.

I actually agree with you on this. It would be far more in keeping with the character of Sonja, and I think even if her vow had less sway on her because of what her goddess supposedly did, it still has meaning because of who she is, and her life's experiences.

I think her vow will remain part of who she is, she just might on occasion decide she doesn't want to apply it so stringently now that things have sort of changed for her.

[Ajax]

I actually agree with you on this. It would be far more in keeping with the character of Sonja, and I think even if her vow had less sway on her because of what her goddess supposedly did, it still has meaning because of who she is, and her life's experiences.

I think her vow will remain part of who she is, she just might on occasion decide she doesn't want to apply it so stringently now that things have sort of changed for her.

Sonja really has never been the bedding kind and rarely gives any hints of wanting life otherwise. Even before the attack she was more interested in fighting than anything else. Both in Marvel and here she never acted like a typical girl.

At Marvel she had a semi-flirtation with Conan, but it was always more to get him to do what she wanted or just to rile him for the fun of it. Conan seldom had more than one use for a woman. Even Belit, though she could handle a sword and had a measure of respect from him, was still expected to be a sex partner as well. That Sonja would never do.

The one time where they fought (Conan 115) Sonja slipped on some spilled wine and Conan got through her guard he dared her to follow through on the vow. She went along but without any responsiveness. Conan didn't go for that at all, while a sexist pig he does have a sense of honor and won't take an unwilling woman. Also he'd been goaded over Belit who'd died recently and had been in no mood for Sonja's ribbing. By the end they'd settled that they were not meant for each other as far as Sonja was concerned.

While they do have superficial similarities, Sonja has always been the more civilized. She didn't have his Cimmerian dislike of magic and she was more comfortable around the complexities of civilization than Conan was. He always wore the trappings of civilization more as an uncomfortable suit than something he came to like. Sonja, on the other hand, never had the barbarian disdain for city life. Ultimately, they made great companions in a fight, but they had distinctly different outlooks on life that wouldn't likely make them much more.

[P~~]

Ajax,

Those are all great points. I think their comfort zones a very different in subtle ways. Ultimately I picture her with someone that seems more Roman or Greek. An educated warrior who is just as deadly as he is smart. I just don’t picture the barbarians like that and that is why I can’t get past Conan being a slab of meat. No matter how they try to write him, he just has that "duh" barbarianism thing about him. He might be smart for a barbarian but not for a civilized warrior culture. I know ... I suck.

I'm going to raise another semi risky question. With today’s society and its openness for same sex relationships. Is this maybe why Sonja froze up with Conan back in that issue 115? Could it be she does not desire men, so she will keep her oath more to herself just so she has an out for not sleeping with a man. I only ask because what if a woman defeats her and says "I'll take you now"? I know it happened in the marvel comics but society was not ready for something like that in comics yet.

Lastly every woman has a need for companion ship of a partner both mentally and sexually. There are those needs. Who or what type of character could give her the best of both worlds? Never will all of us be satisfied but someday a person will write it.


Later,
P~

[Ajax]

Ajax,

Those are all great points. I think their comfort zones a very different in subtle ways. Ultimately I picture her with someone that seems more Roman or Greek. An educated warrior who is just as deadly as he is smart. I just don’t picture the barbarians like that and that is why I can’t get past Conan being a slab of meat. No matter how they try to write him, he just has that "duh" barbarianism thing about him. He might be smart for a barbarian but not for a civilized warrior culture. I know ... I suck.

I'm going to raise another semi risky question. With today’s society and its openness for same sex relationships. Is this maybe why Sonja froze up with Conan back in that issue 115? Could it be she does not desire men, so she will keep her oath more to herself just so she has an out for not sleeping with a man. I only ask because what if a woman defeats her and says "I'll take you now"? I know it happened in the marvel comics but society was not ready for something like that in comics yet.

Lastly every woman has a need for companion ship of a partner both mentally and sexually. There are those needs. Who or what type of character could give her the best of both worlds? Never will all of us be satisfied but someday a person will write it.


Later,
P~

There is a tale like that in The Savage Sword of Conan where Sonja does fall for a prince/warrior type. A couple actually, but the one I am thinking of has her losing a chess game as a way of getting around the vow because she thinks he is a worthy guy and she'd rather not kill him. However, he turns out to have a cowardly streak that puts an end to that romance. However, it had always been the noble, knightly types that Sonja has fallen for in the Marvel tales rather than the brawny adventurer types like Conan.

[Raymar3d]

I think that Sonja always regarded Conan as just another man for awhile, but over time grew to like him as a friend. All I was getting at was that at a point in time when a significant change occurs in someone's life, they might re-evaluate their friends in a new way.

All I'm saying, is that is a seed that was planted that makes some sense. There are an almost infinite amount of possibilities, however, we know that Conan will never stay with her, or she with him, as his life has been chronicled all the way to the last chapter.

I'd like to see it explored, even if they part ways without going there. Just because at this point in time, it could.

As for a lesbian relationship for her, I have no problem with it, personally. After a rape as a child, and years of seeing men as more of the same, it could happen and even be understandable. There's been talk of Sonja vs. Xena, and well....

Anyhow, I'd rather not see that, but if it happened, I would not object.

[Ajax]

I think that Sonja always regarded Conan as just another man for awhile, but over time grew to like him as a friend. All I was getting at was that at a point in time when a significant change occurs in someone's life, they might re-evaluate their friends in a new way.

All I'm saying, is that is a seed that was planted that makes some sense. There are an almost infinite amount of possibilities, however, we know that Conan will never stay with her, or she with him, as his life has been chronicled all the way to the last chapter.

I'd like to see it explored, even if they part ways without going there. Just because at this point in time, it could.

As for a lesbian relationship for her, I have no problem with it, personally. After a rape as a child, and years of seeing men as more of the same, it could happen and even be understandable. There's been talk of Sonja vs. Xena, and well....

Anyhow, I'd rather not see that, but if it happened, I would not object.

One of my favorite stories of them together was in Conan the King #28 which is a variation on their first joint venture in The Song of Red Sonja. Now, though Conan is King and missing his younger freer days. Sonja catches up to him and weedles him into helping her steel a gem from a Death Barge. The interaction is very revealing both for the depth of their friendship and how far apart they have grown since he became a king. She wonders that he may have become just another sodded monarch on a throne, while he is afraid of becoming something like that.

By the adventures end, Conan is wanting to head for the nearest tavern but Sonja tricks him and makes off leaving Conan behind saying he is a king now, not a wanderer like her. Conan is ready to go after Sonja but the bells of the city remind him of his daughter's coming of age ceremony which he seems to sence has also become his and he heads back to the city with a lot on his mind. It is a great story for the two characters and shows them off in one of their best interactions.

[Raymar3d]

One of my favorite stories of them together was in Conan the King #28 which is a variation on their first joint venture in The Song of Red Sonja. Now, though Conan is King and missing his younger freer days. Sonja catches up to him and weedles him into helping her steel a gem from a Death Barge. The interaction is very revealing both for the depth of their friendship and how far apart they have grown since he became a king. She wonders that he may have become just another sodded monarch on a throne, while he is afraid of becoming something like that.

By the adventures end, Conan is wanting to head for the nearest tavern but Sonja tricks him and makes off leaving Conan behind saying he is a king now, not a wanderer like her. Conan is ready to go after Sonja but the bells of the city remind him of his daughter's coming of age ceremony which he seems to sence has also become his and he heads back to the city with a lot on his mind. It is a great story for the two characters and shows them off in one of their best interactions.


Man, I want to read some of those! I have read the novels, all but 5 of them, and a lot of comics, but I haven't got them all. Sounds like I'm missing some hugely relevant ones to this discussion.

Maybe we'll see some reprints of those. One can hope!

[Raymar3d]

http://peterdavid.malibulist.com/archives/001288.html

Interesting article from one of the writers of The Hulk, and many other comics and novels about Sonja's psyche, and about Conan and Sonja.

[Tommy]

:)


http://peterdavid.malibulist.com/archives/001288.html

Interesting article from one of the writers of The Hulk, and many other comics and novels about Sonja's psyche, and about Conan and Sonja.

Excellent article! ;)


Tommy. :cool:

[Ajax]

http://peterdavid.malibulist.com/archives/001288.html

Interesting article from one of the writers of The Hulk, and many other comics and novels about Sonja's psyche, and about Conan and Sonja.

Conan the Barbarian #115 is a good story for the issue of Sonja's vow and how it plays in her life. The story makes the vow out to be as much a choice as a curse. One that Sonja can choose not to follow, but she would have to give up the freedom that she now has. That thought from Sonja goes a long way to re-illuminating the fight she'd had earlier with Conan.

She'd initially been willing to keep on fighting, but she didn't have the heart for a fight to the death and she didn't want to kill a friend. By the same token, she didn't want to be another of Conan's women since she'd be loosing/giving up her sense of self-power. That was something she didn't want to do, even though she did want Conan very much.

The issue is well worth picking up as it covers her vow well along with the consequences. She isn't daring anyone to rape her, rather she is using it to declare her independance. Sex or not is her choice, while she had been raped that was not her choice. That being so, she has no responsibility or guilt for the act, the men who did bear that.

As I read the story, Her vow seems more a statement that she will be dead or the clown attacking her will be. The fight didn't come to that with Conan since she does feel for him. By the tale's end, she explains to Conan that her independance is more important to her now than being with a man. It was a fun tale and well worth picking up.