My Problem with Red Sonja

[terryallenuk]

I know Red Sonja isn't really looked upon as a Howard character for many fans but I consider her very much a part of the REH Comic Book Hyborian Age. I recently posted this over on the REH Comics and Sonja Yahoo Group and thought I'd post here for comment.

Terry


I believe the main problem with the book is that whereas Conan has REH's canon of stories to fall back on and work around Sonja of course doesn't. I guess many, I know I do, feel the Marvel Sonja stories are the canon and because of the fact she interacts with Conan, other characters from that era as well as Howard's Hyborian lands and peoples the Marvel stories are still the "real" Sonja stories.

I think that within the constraints of the pseudo Hyborian Age he's working in Oeming has done a good job, even more so since he went solo, however with my comic buying limited these days I don't know how long I'll get the title if, as it seems from the interview over at Newsarama, Sonja moves even further out of the "real" Hyborian Age.

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=90873

'Assuming that the war with Kulan Gath is a little more likely, can readers expect to see that confrontation play a major role in Red Sonja for some time to come? "Yes, but we won't be seeing a lot of Gath versus Sonja directly. That will happen, but by time Sonja gets back to her world (Red Sonja #'s 19-24 set her on the other side of the world), she will find that Gath has taken over the world, killed all the heroes, and set himself up as god. There will be lots for her to deal with even before she can get to Gath. That battle will begin in Red Sonja #25."'

Guess I consider this series similar to Marvel's Ultimate line, which as an old-time comics reader, I have no real interest in. As I said previously with my funds for comic buying limited these days they will probably be better spent on the new DH Howard books when they come out next year. If Red Sonja Corp. and Conan Properties ever sort out their differences and both co-operate in using the "real" Hyborian world perhaps I'll be back. I'd certainly like to see a Sonja/Conan cross-over, out of continuity with the DH Conan book of course.

Terry

[Dr Nightmare]

Yeah...that's hard to read >_<

[Tommy]

:)

Terry, I've taken the liberty of re-formatting your post so it is a little easier to read. No content has been removed. ;)


Tommy. :cool:

[Osin]

From reading that, it really does seem like they're breaking away totally from Conan's Hyboria, since Gath "killed all the heroes" and he couldn't have killed Conan.

I've really been enjoying the more adult feel of Dynamite's Red Sonja series, I hope it doesn't go all weird and kiddy.

[Dr Nightmare]

Well that looks better 8-)

I'm happy to say that I take neither side when it comes to deciding whose world should be "the real world". I'm glad Sonja is back and won't be bothered at all if Conan decides to pay her a visit in her series.

Everyone bothered by Sonja's success (and in many cases, bothered by her mere exsistence now) needs to either get a life or find a different hobby (or go stick your nose in a Howard book). I actually had a guy hassle me in the store today because I was looking for some Sonja books. "You know she's just some lame spin-off of Con-" Bite me, fanboy. He left me alone :]

I'm not directing the negativity at ya Terry, just venting a little :P

[JRybandt]

Well that looks better 8-)

I'm happy to say that I take neither side when it comes to deciding whose world should be "the real world". I'm glad Sonja is back and won't be bothered at all if Conan decides to pay her a visit in her series.

Everyone bothered by Sonja's success (and in many cases, bothered by her mere exsistence now) needs to either get a life or find a different hobby (or go stick your nose in a Howard book). I actually had a guy hassle me in the store today because I was looking for some Sonja books. "You know she's just some lame spin-off of Con-" Bite me, fanboy. He left me alone :]

I'm not directing the negativity at ya Terry, just venting a little :P

Here;s what I said to Terry when I saw this at the REH newsgroup:

"Terry, I saw you sent that over to the Sonja group, you should put it up on the Dynamite Boards and discuss it there, but as for the thrust of
your "argument", I respectfully disagree.

To me, it's simple: Sonja's world is wide-open, there are no barriers
because, unlike Conan, there's no source material other than the
Marvel comics (and movie and assorted novels) for the character.
Conan's history has been written, and the current incarnation isn't
stepping outside of that box, right?

The strength of Conan's canon is also, to some extent, his weakness
whereas the lack of canon for Sonja is her strength. We have no
boundaries other than the core of the character. As for stepping
outside of "Hyboria" it's for a brief arc, to flesh out the whole
world, why sty in one place when you have a whole planet to explore?

Interesting thoughts as always..."

/joe

[terryallenuk]

:)

Terry, I've taken the liberty of re-formatting your post so it is a little easier to read. No content has been removed. ;)


Tommy. :cool:


Cheers , I posted it quite late and although the original looked OK it came out even weirder here and I didn't have time to tidy it up.

Terry

[terryallenuk]

From reading that, it really does seem like they're breaking away totally from Conan's Hyboria, since Gath "killed all the heroes" and he couldn't have killed Conan.

I've really been enjoying the more adult feel of Dynamite's Red Sonja series, I hope it doesn't go all weird and kiddy.

This is what is worrying me . I only read Sonja and Conan because of their Howard connections and if either strayed to far away from what I envision his Hyborian Age to be I'm afraid I'd consider packing them in.

Terry

[terryallenuk]

Well that looks better 8-)

I'm happy to say that I take neither side when it comes to deciding whose world should be "the real world". I'm glad Sonja is back and won't be bothered at all if Conan decides to pay her a visit in her series.

Everyone bothered by Sonja's success (and in many cases, bothered by her mere exsistence now) needs to either get a life or find a different hobby (or go stick your nose in a Howard book). I actually had a guy hassle me in the store today because I was looking for some Sonja books. "You know she's just some lame spin-off of Con-" Bite me, fanboy. He left me alone :]

I'm not directing the negativity at ya Terry, just venting a little :P


That's OK I quite understand . To be honest many Howard fans don't even consider she exists or is , however slightly , a Howard character.

Terry

[terryallenuk]

Here;s what I said to Terry when I saw this at the REH newsgroup:

"Terry, I saw you sent that over to the Sonja group, you should put it up on the Dynamite Boards and discuss it there, but as for the thrust of
your "argument", I respectfully disagree.

To me, it's simple: Sonja's world is wide-open, there are no barriers
because, unlike Conan, there's no source material other than the
Marvel comics (and movie and assorted novels) for the character.
Conan's history has been written, and the current incarnation isn't
stepping outside of that box, right?

The strength of Conan's canon is also, to some extent, his weakness
whereas the lack of canon for Sonja is her strength. We have no
boundaries other than the core of the character. As for stepping
outside of "Hyboria" it's for a brief arc, to flesh out the whole
world, why sty in one place when you have a whole planet to explore?

Interesting thoughts as always..."

/joe



As I've said I don't think it matters whether there is a canon to follow or not . Conan's strengh is the fact that they have to adhere to Howard . Even so Kurt has received critiscm for some of the stuff he's done.

Whereas Sonja can basically do whatever the writer wants as she's a _new_version of the Marvel character. I've no problem with the sex scene. My worry is that the world she's appearing in _seems_to be moving away from what we know of Howard's world.

Terry

[estee]

To each his own...

I'm really enjoying this series so far. It's taking the character of Sonja in bold new directions. And let's face it, she's a bit thin in the way of character, just a lot of hack and slash, with a bit of intrigue with her vow.

You can't maintain a perfect tone with what the original author intended, a writer will always imbue the character with their own ideas of how he or she will act.

All that matters is that it's well written.


So many writers have come and gone since Jack Kirby and Stan Lee started the modern Marvel line, some have transcended the original concepts and made something equally great, others have failed miserably.

A reader should judge the work on its own merit and not what has passed before it.

[terryallenuk]

As far as I'm concerned , like the DH Conan , or indeed the Marvel Ultimate line , the new Sonja is a completely new character and the writers are able to start from scratch without any reference to what's gone before in the old Marvel series' and re-interpret her character in new ways.

It's best , IMO , not to try and shoe-horn these stories anywhere into the old Marvel continuety just enjoy them as they are.

Terry

[mdbruffy]

I think, having read this thread and the one about how old Sonja is, You have to take into account what Dynamite said when they launched the series and the trade collections of Marvel stories- of which we're still waiting for Vol.2-. They said the Marvel stories laid the ground work for the current series- and in fact Gath is - or was- a totally Marvel invention- which, to my knowledge, only showed up in the Red Sonja- Spiderman team-up. I may be wrong about that, but it's the only time I saw him before the current series.
So I think, you kind of have to accept the Marvel stories as Prologue to the current series.

[Tommy]

:)


As far as I'm concerned , like the DH Conan , or indeed the Marvel Ultimate line , the new Sonja is a completely new character and the writers are able to start from scratch without any reference to what's gone before in the old Marvel series' and re-interpret her character in new ways.

It's best , IMO , not to try and shoe-horn these stories anywhere into the old Marvel continuety just enjoy them as they are.

Terry


I agree, Terry. I think there's a little too much emphasis placed by some elements of the wider fanbase on using previous incarnations of both these characters as a set of shackles by which every new creative vision has to be bound... ;)

Whether or not the current series follows some kind of linear progression from the old Marvel offering is largely immaterial, and the idea that, well, it somehow has to is ill-founded. I'm currently unaware of any information from Dynamite to the effect that such was the intent of the creators of the current series, or that publishing a new series was in any way contingent upon such a clause. The current series of Red Sonja does not require an understanding (or even an awareness, for that matter) of any prior incarnation, and for all intents and purposes is open to appreciation as a new and fresh character, accessible and enjoyable by an entire spectrum of readers.

As to where the current and upcoming arcs fit in existing "canon" - as Joe said, and as Terry agrees, does it even have to? No, not at all - nor is there any truly compelling reason why it should. Just for fun though, let's presume for a moment that there was. Now, I'm not going to get into a debate about Howard's visions (there is a seperate forum catering to that). However, I think that even the most hard-bitten Howard fan can at least agree in principle that for the most part, these arcs are in any case taking place at what were more-or-less the fringes of Howard's world, in areas which he routinely describes as being so distant and far-flung as to be virtually mythical to your common or garden-variety Hyborian.

In the case of evil god-priest types seizing control (however temporarily) of vast tracts of Howard's world, I think we can also agree in principle that there is precedent there too - certainly, "Black Colossus" and "The Hour of The Dragon" stand out as prime examples, and in any case there is always the shadow of the pre-Hyborian civilisation of Acheron. In terms of strange races, and in some cases pseudo-civilisations, of anthropomorphic beings - well, those too make plenty of appearances.

So, whether like me you welcome a refreshing and dynamic new vision and the chance to see first-hand the forging of a new and distinct creation more than capable of standing in its own right, or whether like others you long for the comforting certainties of yesteryear, then there's plenty to enjoy in the current Red Sonja series. Revel in the chance to continue the journey with what has to date been a stand-out offering in the world of comics, and believe me you won't be disappointed!


Tommy. :cool:

[Luke Lieberman]

I am going to jump in.

I appreciate Terry that you are a real fan of Howard's - no one appreciates that more than I do -

I hope you appreciate that there is a balance between respecting what has come before and creating new material.

for one thing - as Estee pointed out the previous incarnations of Sonja - either in Marvel or the Vulture short story -

her character was striking and iconic but lacked any real character depth,

the first priority I laid down when we started working with Oeming is that we make her more multi-dimensional and more of a real person, with real motivations.


you have to use what has come before as a foundation - but you cannot let it become a limitation - as it has in some respects for Conan.

you seemed upset that we put Sonja together with Thulsa Doom - but as I saw it, Thulsa Doom is immortal, so there is no reason he cannot simply still be alive (and up to his dirty tricks) in Sonja/Conan's time.

Just because Howard didn't put them together does not mean that no one ever should (he never put Sonja and Conan together either for that matter - Thomas did).

and it is not disloyal to the Kull mythos that Thulsa Doom survived over the centuries and fought other hero's later.


it is similar in many ways to Star Wars - Lucas laid out a Universe and basic rules of the game in this Universe, as well as the basic pillars of the myth (chosen one turns to the darkside, his son Luke redeems him) - but that doesn't mean that Star Wars cannot have a life beyond Lucas.

DH has been extrapolating on the Star Wars franchise for years, there have been any number of novels, the Cartoon Network did the clone wars... some of it sucks - but some is well conceived.

I am a big SW fan - my name is LUKE, I was born in 78' - and it doesn't bother me that for instance DH has series with characters that were never in the movies on planets you never heard of - so long as they respect the underlying mythos.


i think there is value in exploring the parts of the world - that Howard never got around to exploring himself - the Hyborean Age has limitless potential.


your concern is understood, it must remain loyal - just not limited.