On Trainwrecks, Realism, and the Picking of Nits...

[Lone Ranger]

I've looked at this over and over and have come to the conclusion that the Lone Ranger shot the lever to make the train switch tracks. In my opinion, the train crashed. Even if it were just the back part, a wreck like that would derail and stop the train. Others were sure to have been injured or killed in a crash of that magnitude. It's a failure in the story that the Ranger wasn't concerned for others on the train.
I find it hard to believe that Bart was able to be as physical as he was with a knife wound to the shoulder and a bullet wound in his hand. I think the telegram is proof that Bart did survive. I think it very odd that he would give the Ranger his guns and that the Ranger would accept them. I also think it was a flaw to let Bart go free.
Also, Brett Matthews really needs a lesson in U.S. geography. The trip between the northwestern most part of Texas and Laramie, Wyo., would take about 12 hours by car (if you wore an astronaut diaper :D ), but several weeks by horse. To do it in two days would mean violating some laws of physics and nature.
As for the meaning of Kemo Sabe, there are about as many translations as there are spellings of the word. The most common are Trusty Scout, Trusty Friend, Trusted Friend and now Faithful Friend.

[CindyR]

I took another look at the panel. No, it's obvious that it's *only* the last car and wood-carrier that derails due to the Ranger's bullet, not the whole train. i'm willing to assume he could see whether or not people were in the last car (caboose?) but it's pretty obvious the rest of the train does not jump the track (or at least, does not fly off the track). and who knows? if we were some teenaged kid chasing his family's murderer, we might not think about the biggest possible consequences either.

no reason to believe the trip from wyoming only took 2 days. remember, he was chasing Bart the whole way and probably only arrived at linda's house a couple of days after Bart before turning right around and continuing the chase. it's not likely they were gonna meet going back and forth, after all.
wonder if tonto was faking for awhile to give the kid time to get back?
Cindy

Previous Quote:
_____________________
I've looked at this over and over and have come to the conclusion that the Lone Ranger shot the lever to make the train switch tracks. In my opinion, the train crashed. Even if it were just the back part, a wreck like that would derail and stop the train. Others were sure to have been injured or killed in a crash of that magnitude. It's a failure in the story that the Ranger wasn't concerned for others on the train.
I find it hard to believe that Bart was able to be as physical as he was with a knife wound to the shoulder and a bullet wound in his hand. I think the telegram is proof that Bart did survive. I think it very odd that he would give the Ranger his guns and that the Ranger would accept them. I also think it was a flaw to let Bart go free.
Also, Brett Matthews really needs a lesson in U.S. geography. The trip between the northwestern most part of Texas and Laramie, Wyo., would take about 12 hours by car (if you wore an astronaut diaper :D ), but several weeks by horse. To do it in two days would mean violating some laws of physics and nature.

[CindyR]

Heck, i wasn't going to go thru the trouble, but i re-read some of Dave Holland's book "From out of the past: A pictorial history of the lone ranger." (And please no one tell my husband i haven't put it on ebay after i planned to like 6 months ago. {sigh})

on the word 'kemo sabay.' here's what it says:

Story Number Three is irrefutable.
you know that boys camp that [series writer/director who hired Striker] james jewell's father-in-law ran on mullet lake [northern michigan]? Guess what it's name was. "Kee-mo Sahbee." that's even the way they spelled it when it was named that back in 1915, 18 years before The Lone Ranger went on the air. and that's where james jewell got 'kemo sabe." he was the one to put it into the scrpts (where it was spelled "kemo sabay," incidentally.)
Brace Beemer liked to tell people it meant "faithful friend" but Jewell insisted that it only meant 'trusty scout.' "that's the only thing it has ever meant," he told Rothel, "or ever will mean." Period, by God. (Holland. 1987. p. 155.)

quick-someone tell the comic writers! :)
CindyR
Crossposted on ezboard

[tonto]

hey Cindy see my post on issue 6 elsewhere on the board. I think John "let him go" to use as bait to get to Cavendish. He knows that Butch will have to tie up all loose ends which includes Bart and that will give clues to the motives and whereabouts of Cavendish. I think Bart will eventually see bars but his involvement illustrates much of the Creed and serves to prompt Tonto toward John's (and maybe his own) belief system. Note that Bart's world view is totally opposite than John's especially the colorblind Creed but its obvious that John and Linda's treatment of him is something completely foreign to him. And also to be shown mercy in combat from a white man no less is something that might change him hence the guns. He did give Butch the money back so at least his priorities are shifting abit. Time and hopefully a one shot will tell the rest of his story. I also like the fact that Tonto left the knife (his and Matthews' symbolic killing talisman) with Bart essentially making his own choice and choosing life while putting the same choice in Bart's hands. As for said jail time what's a dead man to do make a citizens arrest in the 1870's or have the Indian bring him in (which would likely get them both hanged). Such is the peril of too much reality.

[CindyR]

Hmmmm. I suppose they could be using bart as bait, tho i don't see it yet. especially since bart pretty much divorced himself from butch and disappered.

one other possibility: i can't find a shred of evidence against bart anywhere. no one saw him kill anyone, he didn't leave smoking identifiable guns at the scene of the crime, and there's no one whe would testify (like butch) as to his involvement. turning him in wouldn't have done any good anyway.
not that it looks like he's ever going to be able to walk again much less do violence....
Cindy

[Kevin]

Bart's entire conversation with Tonto and then with Lone Ranger are to the effect of him expecting to die. especially his conversation with the ranger. "I'm ready." is a fatalistic approach, and he had expected to have a showdown before he left the ranch.

Looking at his beat up body, I honestly do not see him surviving. Not only that but didn't they say in the pod cast that issue #6 was bringing the Black Bart chapter to a close? That to me says Black Bart had made arrangements to send that telegram before heading out to the showdown. Either that or Tonto or Ranger sent that telegram to make BC think that Bart was still alive.

If Black Bart did live, then, again, I will have very little respect for how this story turned out. We're talking about a cold blooded murderer who seems to be able to track anyone down anywhere - a person that dangerous should've died or been turned into the authorities. His leg is drawn as if it's broken in two (the way it's twisted with the metal I see his leg doing a 60 degree angle below the knee, as well as being twisted where it can't twist), and he's out in the middle of nowhere. For him to survive that wreck, profuse bleeding, and make it to send the telegram in what appears to be a short amount of time out in the middle of the wilderness would be outrageously ridiculous.

Bart's gotta be dead or had to have prepared that gram before the duel.

[Kevin]

Heck, i wasn't going to go thru the trouble, but i re-read some of Dave Holland's book "From out of the past: A pictorial history of the lone ranger." (And please no one tell my husband i haven't put it on ebay after i planned to like 6 months ago. {sigh})

on the word 'kemo sabay.' here's what it says:

Story Number Three is irrefutable.
you know that boys camp that [series writer/director who hired Striker] james jewell's father-in-law ran on mullet lake [northern michigan]? Guess what it's name was. "Kee-mo Sahbee." that's even the way they spelled it when it was named that back in 1915, 18 years before The Lone Ranger went on the air. and that's where james jewell got 'kemo sabe." he was the one to put it into the scrpts (where it was spelled "kemo sabay," incidentally.)
Brace Beemer liked to tell people it meant "faithful friend" but Jewell insisted that it only meant 'trusty scout.' "that's the only thing it has ever meant," he told Rothel, "or ever will mean." Period, by God. (Holland. 1987. p. 155.)

quick-someone tell the comic writers! :)
CindyR
Crossposted on ezboard


Yes, please. I'd like just a tad more accuracy on this subject.

The only things I'd change in this book really are:

1. Give us a time notation so we can see how much time passes between panels, ok?

2. Kemo-Sabe = trusty scout.

[tonto]

OK I guess arrows fired from self bows breaking guns is plausable. there are a lot of inaccuracies and "ridiculous" stuff going on in LR. Which is fine for me because I'm just as inclined to believe superman flies because he wears a red cape that simple or at least it shouldn't be scientifically or aerodynamically explained. its all fiction. If you can't believe that a man fully concious can survive the train wreck there is no reason to believe that John could survive the ambush even with Tonto's help.

[CindyR]

Hey, tonto.
a steel-tipped longbow can pierce body armor; i have no trouble believing it can hit a gun in the right spot and stress-fracture it. Feel better? :)

but i'm afraid our buddy kevin is going to have to be disappointed. the CHAPTER of Bart may be closed, but Bart himself is in a hospital somewhere in traction dictating telegrams. Good example of John surviving possibly worse injuries. :)
I agree with Kevin about the time passage not being clear in this story, tho; just not sure how to build it into the segue without using up precious story space.
Cindy


OK I guess arrows fired from self bows breaking guns is plausable. there are a lot of inaccuracies and "ridiculous" stuff going on in LR. Which is fine for me because I'm just as inclined to believe superman flies because he wears a red cape that simple or at least it shouldn't be scientifically or aerodynamically explained. its all fiction. If you can't believe that a man fully concious can survive the train wreck there is no reason to believe that John could survive the ambush even with Tonto's help.

[tonto]

An English longbow no doubt, but a Southwestern most likely Comanche/Kiowa (if Tonto's from Texas) one piece short bow I doubt it at long range and that barrel has the benefit of 19 century industrial steelwork. The time thing does seem a bit "because i say so writing" but look at those handwritten "telegrams". All this just seems to be minor artist/writer communications stuff, both Matthews and Carriello would have to be steadfast researchers to get everything correct. I just wonder about the term Half-breed where in any version of the LR myth has tonto been anything other than full-blood. No blue eyes, fair hair or nothin you'd think he was Quanah Parker or sumptin.

[CindyR]

i'm still pulling for the broken gun to be not much of a stretch. especially since tonto had access to any bow he could make or buy, was a big, powerful man with one *heck* of a draw, and using steel (instead of stone) tipped arrows. but it's okay if you don't think it plausable; i do.

as to tonto, I am *assuming* that they will be keeping tonto's potawatomie ethnicity if only on one side. that was established in the series and since the potawatomie ended up in first kansas then oklahoma (with a small group following the kickapoo south to mexico), quite believable. of course, this mature tonto could have traveled with the wind and ended up anywhere he chose, especially if he has no tribal ties, being a half-breed and all.

as to that: yes, the original tonto in both the first book and the earliest radio program was a half-breed. (that was changed later.) that background of tonto's being a half-breed is fair game for the writer to use.
Cindy


An English longbow no doubt, but a Southwestern most likely Comanche/Kiowa (if Tonto's from Texas) one piece short bow I doubt it at long range and that barrel has the benefit of 19 century industrial steelwork. The time thing does seem a bit "because i say so writing" but look at those handwritten "telegrams". All this just seems to be minor artist/writer communications stuff, both Matthews and Carriello would have to be steadfast researchers to get everything correct. I just wonder about the term Half-breed where in any version of the LR myth has tonto been anything other than full-blood. No blue eyes, fair hair or nothin you'd think he was Quanah Parker or sumptin.

[Kevin]

OK I guess arrows fired from self bows breaking guns is plausable. there are a lot of inaccuracies and "ridiculous" stuff going on in LR. Which is fine for me because I'm just as inclined to believe superman flies because he wears a red cape that simple or at least it shouldn't be scientifically or aerodynamically explained. its all fiction. If you can't believe that a man fully concious can survive the train wreck there is no reason to believe that John could survive the ambush even with Tonto's help.

His leg was broken in at least two places, this alone would prevent him from crawling out of the desert before being eaten alive.

Tonto at least stopped the Lone Ranger from dying of dehydration, I don't see that for Black Bart.

Besides, bows are pretty strong. and if the wood on Bart's Gun's stock wasn't taken care of, it could easily splinter.

[CindyR]

[cindy raises one brow] and you don't think the dozen or so men working on that train would have *noticed the loss of their caboose and extra fuel (and probably skipping the rails of at least a few more cars) and come back to investigate and get the victim to safety? and even if the train crew was blind, deaf, and dumb, i'm assuming the railroad company would have had someone there within the day to investigate the loss of a couple of cars. Sheesh! Bart would have had to beat the help off with a stick within a few hours.
[friendly gibing in your direction] Cindy


His leg was broken in at least two places, this alone would prevent him from crawling out of the desert before being eaten alive.

[Kevin]

Cindy, we're talking about an 1870s railroad - pre-safety regulations. No, they would not have noticed right away nor would they have cared if they did notice right away. Engineers have one thing on their mind. Chug Chug Chug to the destination.

Not only that, but IF that train had even BEGUN to stop the moment the caboose had derailed, it probably would've taken them 3 miles. I'm not a train historian, but I do not believe that straight air brakes were in surplus in 1870. They had only JUST been invented in 1869. In fact, according to this one website it wasn't until 1876 that All Southern Pacific and Central Pacific passenger cars converted to straight air brakes. The previous air brakes having been relatively weak.

http://www.sdrm.org/history/timeline/


If the train had wanted to stop quicker than 3 miles, it'd have to slam on the breaks, which would increase the chances of those railroad tracks to snakehead (a very nasty phenomenon).


That was also a passenger train, no way in hell would they have had the equipment or inclination to investigate the wreck. The best thing they would've and could've done was gone to their next stop and make a telegraph about the accident.

I seriously doubt that help would've arrived soon -- I'm guessing about 2 days ride? Maybe a day if a REPAIR locomotive had been sent, and only then if there was a town within spitting distance. If we're talking about reality here, I'd expect it to take 3 days to over a week for them to get to the wreck.

Having said that, do you honestly think they would be prepared for a medical emergency? Even after an HOUR black bart could've lost enough blood just to die right there. He'd have to also survive the trip back to civilization BEFORE a doctor could work on him!


If Black Bart is alive, I want to see him minus one leg in the very least.

Train Travel, and investigating large train wrecks was SLOW back then. VERY VERY Slow. There were NO emergency crews. Sometimes it'd take days to get to a widely known catastrophe. You've gotta watch some wild west tech, I'm not making this stuff up.

Black Bart should NOT survive that wreck. Not only that but if a crew did arrive to save him, I'd be very disappointed in the Lone Ranger if he didn't warn them first about the Murderer Black Bart. If anything, the rescue people would've arrived with freshly forged irons to clamp him down.


Edit: you know on further evaluation I wouldn't be surprised if it'd take that train going at a speed sufficient enough to toss the caboose that far into the air -- we're talking maybe 10+ miles to come to a complete stop.

[CindyR]

kevin, perhaps you've forgotten that TOP speed on a train of that era was about 35mph; fully laden, sustained speed probably 25 on a good day? (info, interestingly, came from the 'true west moment' series on the western channel, with bob boze bell.) with air *or mechanical brakes (which it most certainly would have had), it was not about to ghost along for miles and miles after having been jolted by dragging derailed cars. (i realize the last two would have snapped loose but it didn't look like the others flew free tho they probably left the track.) [interesting train link-i read it all.]
and i still contend that only a pack of idiots of a crew wouldn't have noticed they were dragging (and lost) derailed cars! that doesn't make sense. i believe they would most certainly have investigated--anyone would have including you and me; again, that only makes sense, and i believe that was the source of Bart's survival of his injuries. (after all, we're only *assuming internal injuries, no one said he had any. all we saw was a broken leg and a bullet hole in his hand. the knife wound was now two days old and obviously not so serious having missed anything vital according to bart.) it would be a good touch if bart did lose his leg and i hope justice comes to him later, tho i guess he's out of the story for now. maybe he's in a wheelchair?
anyway, it's not that hard for a full train crew to bundle a man onto the first on-track car and leave.
this said, my main continued belief for his survival is the telegram being sent some indeterminate time later, which i will never believe was sent before the battle due to Bart's assuredness in himself and his own expectations of winning the fight. his attitude was made quite clear all the way thru the story.
i still think the ranger and tonto probably expected bart to die of his wounds and so left him to it. wonder if bart kept tonto's knife?
am also looking forward to the ranger finding out who butch is (his function, i mean, not his name which he now knows). matthews in one interview or another said it was the equivalent of finding out your family was killed by the president. that should be interesting.
cindy

[Kevin]

kevin, perhaps you've forgotten that TOP speed on a train of that era was about 35mph; fully laden, sustained speed probably 25 on a good day?

I'm sorry cindy, but did you miss the part of my post where I said:


you know on further evaluation I wouldn't be surprised if it'd take that train going at a speed sufficient enough to toss the caboose that far into the air -- we're talking maybe 10+ miles to come to a complete stop.

25-35 Mph is NOT a sufficient enough speed to toss that caboose in the air. But even if that train was going 25-35 mph that train would NOT be stoppin anytime soon even if they pulled the emergency cord (which hadn't have been invented yet to my knowledge).


Not only that but do you actually think that a train caring THOUSANDS of TONS can stop in less than 3 miles going 35 miles per hour?



(info, interestingly, came from the 'true west moment' series on the western channel, with bob boze bell.) with air *or mechanical brakes (which it most certainly would have had), it was not about to ghost along for miles and miles after having been jolted by dragging derailed cars.

Cindy, I'm reading the book right now. NONE of the other cars outside the caboose and that giant several thousand ton freight car had flipped which is what would've happened if they derailed. NONE. The train is also carrying freight and passengers. (something which seems odd is the artist drew freight and passenger cars inbetween each other). There seems to be a lot wrong with this train.



(i realize the last two would have snapped loose but it didn't look like the others flew free tho they probably left the track.) [interesting train link-i read it all. and i still contend that only a pack of idiots of a crew wouldn't have noticed they were dragging (and lost) derailed cars! that doesn't make sense.


lol we're talking about an era where they used the same stretch of track going west as going east. How much money are you willing to stake on your bet cause I'm a little poor right now and could use extra cash. These people were paid top dollar to go from point A to point B as fast as possible.



i believe they would most certainly have investigated--

Yeah, after a week had gone by.



anyone would have including you and me; again, that only makes sense, and i believe that was the source of Bart's survival of his injuries.

They would not have been able to stop the train and back it up. You're misunderstanding how long it took those trains to come to a stop.



(after all, we're only *assuming internal injuries, no one said he had any. all we saw was a broken leg and a bullet hole in his hand.

That leg is drawn as broken in two, it juts out at two different angles, and that means arteries are slashed. Outside of the artist having 0 perspective, that leg is a mortal injury.



it would be a good touch if bart did lose his leg and i hope justice comes to him later, tho i guess he's out of the story for now. maybe he's in a wheelchair?
anyway, it's not that hard for a full train crew to bundle a man onto the first on-track car and leave.

LOL yes it is! Cindy, it'd take a long, a very very very very long time for that train to come to a halt. It would then take a very very very very long time and a TON of coal to start that train back up and back it up far enough so they wouldn't have to walk 10 miles to check out the wreck.

That train was carrying freight with passengers, (cars inbetween one another which is odd), and it had a piss poor breaking system. EVERY TIME a Engineer breaks a train it means life and death. They have to jump from one car to another in order to tighten each break on each car to bring the train to a halt. They are NOT emergency crew ready. NO WAY IN HELL would that train have stopped, backed up, and investigated the missing cars. NONE.

These people are NOT trained for emergencies.

Black Bart should be dead. period. Nobody would've reached him for several days and he would not be able to climb out of that mess.

[CindyR]

obviously we shall have to respectfully agree to disagree both on trains and on Bart. as i mentioned, the telegram alone proves bart is not dead. how he survives is pretty immaterial to me tho the discussion was interesting if not really germain.
best,
Cindy

[Kevin]

Cindy, the problem here is you're not understanding anything about trains and how they were run. That's not something to "agree to disagree" about. That's something on which you actually need to do a bit more research.

One episode of Wild West Tech will blow your theories out of the water.

The only possible excuse for Bart's survival after this is if the artist really didn't know how to draw the scene he was told to draw or if likewise the writer didn't know much about trains or what not.

I'm more inclined to believe Bart is dead.

[MadMikeyD]

Not meaning any disrespect here people, but we are trying to argue real world logic into a comic book. Real world logic would say there is no way the Lone Ranger could even shoot that switch with the weapons of the day. And if he did make what would have to have been a very lucky shot, more than just the last two cars would have derailed. Here is how I see the bottom line: Bart's death was left open to interpretation, leaving the creative team the option of someday bringing him back if they felt the need. Maybe he died out there, maybe he was found. It was left open. I happen to believe he did survive and we will see him in a wheelchair eventually. Although I can see the other arguement as well. If he is dead, I believe he probably used Tonto's knife to commit suicide, rather than die a slow, torturous death from starvation, dehydration, internal bleeding, or whatever. Only Brett Matthews knows for sure, and I'll bet he doesn't give a definitive answer so that he still has the option of changing his mind later.

[Kevin]

There's a difference to me between performing a Heroic Feat (such as shooting the train switch), and completely re-writing reality (such as this entire train idea and black bart's survival).

I do kinda hope that the Lone Ranger of the future spins more towards realism than Marvel or DC Comics Fantasy (super skrulls causing Civil War and Superboy Prime punching an invisible wall). I'm enjoying it so far, but if it turns into what Red Sonja's becoming I'm gonna get turned off real fast.

Likewise, I hope Zorro retains the original concept of realism. That's one reason why I love Alex Toth's and Don McGregor's zorro incarnations so much, they WOULD have Heroic feats, but they'd keep it grounded in realism. A train would not flip a caboose and a several thousand ton freight car 30 feet in the air while the rest remains perfectly intact. If someone broke a leg in two (such as the injuries Black Bart suffered), there's a good chance they'll die, even if it's from infection.

Zorro or LR can make a heroic shot from 200 yards to slice the rope of a hangman's noose, I'll buy that and it's in line with their heroic feats. But I don't want to see Zorro getting his back broken and walking around the next day, the Lone Ranger jumping from a moving train and only having one hair put out of place, or having a villain get his neck snapped in two then coming back to life.


Comic book or not some real life physics has to follow these characters.

[CindyR]

[frostily spoken] And YOU, Kevin, need to go read up on how not to be rude on the internet.
CindyR



Cindy, the problem here is you're not understanding anything about trains and how they were run. That's not something to "agree to disagree" about. That's something on which you actually need to do a bit more research.

[Kevin]

Cindy, if you want to call me rude for saying your wrong, that's your porogative. But, you're wrong about how they handled those trains. Trains took a long time to come to a stop. Trains were on tight schedules with near speed psychotic engineers. Trains like this were not service vehicles. There were no real search and rescue parties that serviced train wrecks like they did today.

The only thing on which I'll agree with you is that the Train scene seemed poorly portrayed. Everyone seems to have said that in all their online reviews so I didn't think it that necessary to point it out to this degree. The comic was still a great comic, I loved it, and I still love it and I can't wait for issue #7.

I'm sorry, Cindy, but that's just the way it was.

[Tommy]

:)

People, CHILL. :D


As Mikey said:


Not meaning any disrespect here people, but we are trying to argue real world logic into a comic book.

Exactly. Silly, isn't it? Please move on to the next discussion point. ;)


Tommy. :cool:

[Kevin]

Well your post does bring up a point, Tommy :D I'm not being nasty or attacking you or dynamite in any way, but I believe it's a serious point :D :

Do real world physics no longer have a place in heroes such as Lone Ranger or Zorro? Is it now unacceptable to have any kind of hero comic that is soundly grounded in real world physics? :confused:

I'm being dead serious on this topic. I"m not attacking anybody here or being nasty and I’m not attacking the writers or this comic. I think this topic is extremely pertinent to these characters and as far as I can tell it has not be discussed to date.

While I can understand physics being constantly bent and broken for the likes of X-Men or Superman. The Lone Ranger, The Shadow, Green Hornet, Zorro, are all characters of which real life physics plays a critical role in their existence. They are the policemen who get things done when others can't, but they don't get them done because of fantastical superhero physics, they get them done through real life physics. To me, their struggle with real life physics not only grounds the characters and their strife, but it also makes their heroic feats that much more heroic because they are doing it in a world that has the same physics humanity knows and struggles with every single day.

In the X-Men universe, it's nothing to walk on the moon.

In our universe, or in the universe of the Wild Wild West, a concept of walking on the moon brings up hurdles of physics/logistics that must be overcome through brilliance, strength, and perseverance.

To me, real life physics me needs to play a critical part in these types of mortal characters. Regardless of it being a comic, I need Zorro to deal with a broken leg if he has a broken leg. I don’t want to see him grimacing and “working his way through it” while taking down an army of the Alcade’s corrupt lancers.

[Bradtisme]

In my opinion, humble though it may be, many of us read comics as a means of escapism from reality and purely for entertainment. We don't concern ourselves with the fantasy world of the comic fitting into the rules and scientific principles of our everyday world. Seems completely unnecessary for it to do so. Just enjoy it for what it is..a comic:D

[Tommy]

:)


Well your post does bring up a point, Tommy I'm not being nasty or attacking you or dynamite in any way, but I believe it's a serious point:
...

To me, real life physics me needs to play a critical part in these types of mortal characters. Regardless of it being a comic, I need Zorro to deal with a broken leg if he has a broken leg. I don’t want to see him grimacing and “working his way through it” while taking down an army of the Alcade’s corrupt lancers.


In my opinion, humble though it may be, many of us read comics as a means of escapism from reality and purely for entertainment. We don't concern ourselves with the fantasy world of the comic fitting into the rules and scientific principles of our everyday world. Seems completely unnecessary for it to do so. Just enjoy it for what it is..a comic


Both these approaches are, in my opinion, correct, as are disagreements over the extent to which possibility and/or reality are desirable (refer to the last couple of pages), provided such disagreements remain entirely civil. My own appreciation of comics tends to be far closer to that which Brad expresses. That said, I definitely appreciate a strong streak of gritty realism (or perhaps more accurately, a gritty depiction of realism with which the artist has taken license) and I don't believe it's a zero-sum game in which one must be chosen over the other.

We are in the end all giving our opinions here. Disagreement does not render the opinion of another invalid, nor extinguish their right to hold such opinions no matter how odious we may regard them as being. Nor should our opinions be presented as necessarily factual - though we may cite evidence to support them, they remain interpretations of facts and are not facts in and of themselves. Expression of opinion may of course in some instances be curtailed where behaviour is deemed malicious (though this has not occurred in this thread), as evidenced via the example of a number of members removed from these forums.

Kevin, I do realise you're not attacking anyone here, myself and Dynamite included. I definitely do understand that your intent within this discussion is genuine (and from what I can see certainly not malicious) and that your appreciation of the comic art-form is a keen one. However, having posters simply stating and re-stating and re-stating the same basic argument with (or at) each other after they have agreed to disagree and have strongly indicated that neither will be persuaded by the other is simply pointless, and does nothing to foster a fun and pro-active forum environment. There comes a point at which it is far more productive to move the discussion along. Hence, my post above.


Tommy. :cool:

[Kevin]

Well I don't think that some concepts of the discussion have been addressed, not only that, but I think maybe Dynamite needs to directly discuss them.

Most of the complaints I've seen about the Lone Ranger have been concerning the depiction of realism concerning the lone ranger. The Lone Ranger is not a comic character. This is a comic of a ficticious hero.

A Comic Character is the X-Men. It seems to me like it'd be helpful if Dynamite sets the groundrules for realism in this comic and expressed these rules to the fans.

[tonto]

Well first off thanks Cindy on the Tonto info its good to know that Matthews isn't mishandling the term "half-breed". Now to me the realism debate is subjective as a whole all the minor nuances, dismissals and flatout mistakes (peacemaker bullets without cartriges) in the story telling don't detract from the themes or narrative. If this were a superhero or high fantasy thing the aspects of realism should be easily dismissed because truthfully there is a strong element of unreality to begin with or at leat it USED to be. Most of us just like to be pulled along on a satisfying ride and a good writer (Matthews) does exactly that. And thats what we have here. Too much realism like in superhero comics and you have discussions on super-menstration and bowel movements (I have actually read this kinda stuff before) dismiss enough detail and its Because I say so storytelling or even worse flash without substance which is a disservice to the characters traditions and creators most of us came to in underoos in grade school in search of the gift of fantasy. It was good enough then and to me it still works without the overly polished lens of cynism and laboriously honed sexual wit and neurosis of "adult" storytelling which endeavors to reach an essentially juvenile area in the readers imagination. Heck as long as the symbolism and spirit of adventure remains in LR I don't care if those .44's are made from Hector's sword or if Silver fed on air and could outstrip the wind.

[Tommy]

:)

<Admin> This thread has strayed a fair ways from MadMikeyD's excellent Lone Ranger #6 review. Split and re-named... ;) </Admin>


Tommy. :cool:

[Kevin]

thx tommy ^_^

tonto, the whole purpose though of heroes like the Lone Ranger, Zorro, The Shadow, is that they live in a world as real as ours. That is their whole purpose as heroes - is that they are part of a reality with real physics, with real consequences to these physics.

They are not superheroes, and I really am getting tired of hearing people call the Lone Ranger a superhero. It's not even an accurate description of the man.

What makes them amazing, outstanding, and breath taking is the fact that their physics closely resembles ours!

When Robin Hood shoots an arrow that splits/shatters his opponent's arrow then the audience GASPS! They GASP because NOBODY could do that! But when Green Arrow does it the reader says, "Yeah, so what?"

When Zorro jumps from a 2 story building and lands safely on Tornado the audience claps and yells "WOO HOO!" When GHOST RIDER does it, the audience says, "Dude, that might've been cool if he jumped from a 50 story building.

When Captain Picard gets punched by a Klingon, you know he's hurt and you're saying "DAMN! What's gonna happen!". When Professor X gets punched by a Super Skrull you "Yawn! Show me something exciting."

There's realism like menstration (which is absolutely ridiculous to have in a comic 99.9% of the time), and there's Realism concerning physics.



These heroes are heroes, not superheroes. Just because they're in a comic doesn't make them superheroes (where they bend the laws of time and space). Even Star Trek with fantastical science doesn't cross that boundary (well not often). REALISM is a quintessential part of the makeup for these characters. REMOVING this kind of realism is really destructive and counter productive to their entire essence.

[tonto]

Hey Kevin I hear your points and there all valid . I hope your enjoyment of the comic has lessened though because there is a lot of good stuff happening in LR. Just to clarify I only mentioned superhero comics because they have been the giant genre in the biz until the adventure fantasy revival recently (still waiting on Romance and Mystery to come back though). From Homer to Walt Gibson the fantastic or the outstandingly extraordinary has always been there even in your examples. But weighing the good stuff against the bad you'll find the good stuff easily outweighs the bad. When has reading a comic been like reading a novel not just a good comics story. And by novel I mean all the literary elements from symbolism to foreshadowing mostly implied if not subtly stated which gives LR re-readability. And theres something new every time.

[Kevin]

I won't drop the book unless it gets stupid ;D so far I don't see that happening. (it takes a lot for me to drop a book. For instance, I stuck through Devin Grayson's run on Nightwing only to drop it on Bruce Jones).

I just want the writer or artist or whomever to keep realism in mind for future issues, because realism is what Lone Ranger and Zorro thrive upon.

To tell you the truth I am getting so sickened and fed up with Marvel and DC right now that I only get Excalibur (because, well, there's a bit of realism to ground it, and in general it's alright), Deadpool and Cable trades (because they make fun of superheroes), and whatever Alex Ross is doing (I love his artwork).


I hope I don't sound harsh on LR. I like LR, I just don't want it to really slip from the roots of realism which help sustain him. I also made the post with Zorro half-in mind. Hoping that the message that "Realism doesn't suck in a comic. Realism helps to create a broad grounding base from where you can expound on their very human abilities that make them heroes".

Anyway I hope this makes sense to yall.


You know something I didn't mention before, but Don Rosa, the second most popular Donald Duck/Scrooge McDuck writer of all time -- he went to extremes to do research on each of the areas which his stories centered. He brought a strong sense of realism into the Duck Comics and it worked like a charm. So Realism can be a great benefit to the story telling you can't find anywhere else :D



PS: I do really like LR :)


PPS: oh and it'd be helpful if there were time passage markers in LR :D

[Guicho]

Comic book or not some real life physics has to follow these characters.
Key word being some, but not all real life physics needs to follow these characters.

At least not for me. None of the slightly wonky physics or extranormal actions bothered me in this issue, I loved seeing Tonto shatter the pistol (and it looked liked some old vintage pistol anyway, he even suggests it when he says “I loved that damn gun”) Then switches to his “new” one.
Or the incredible distances traveled, or the Ranger shooting the lever to derail the last two cars, and the caboose flipping end-over-end, without derailing the rest of the train. So what? It looked great! Loved seeing it, it just ads to the visual drama. I came in expecting to suspend some disbelief, and I personally hope to see more of it in Zorro as well, otherwise why bother.
Nobody is talking about flying, walking through walls or shooting laser beams out of their eyes here, but they should be allowed some measure of the fantastic!
I need to see LR make some impossible shots.


As far as Bart potentially surviving (at leas long enough to have mailed the telegram) That is how I interpreted it too. He did survive at least that long.
I don’t buy that he could have sent the telegram before the showdown. For one, as Cindy pointed out his motivation. This was not a guy that was planning to loose, which that Telegram would imply he was, if it was sent before the fight.
And two, the telegram specifically references the money, “keep your money” His whole motivation was the money. Why would he forgo the money before he’d even had a chance to face off with the lone ranger? He had no reason to think he would loose.

I also don’t buy that Reid would have sent the Telegram after Bart’s death either, as again it references the money, why would Reid care to announce that Bart had forgone the money?.
The telegram says, “Keep your money. He’s coming’ for you.”
All Reid would have needed Cavendish to know is that “I’m coming for you.”

Having said that, Reid leaving this cold-blooded killer free makes absolutely no sense. And neither did him accepting his guns as some kind of token or symbol of honor between them. WTF?

[Lone Ranger]

I think if Bart did survive that he may have reformed in the process. He saw that Reid could take more hate than Bart had dealt with and still show compassion. I think Tonto aided quite a bit in that lesson.

[Guicho]

I agree, Bart may be a completely changed man after his encounter with Reid and Tonto (and I don’t just mean physically :p ). And the Telegram seems to confirm it. It still does not explain why Reid would allow him to go free.
I think they just assumed he would die, and underestimated his will.
But considering this guy would not have even blinked while shooting Reid’s brother’s wife and kid, that’s makes the ending somewhat shoddy.
Not to mention Tonto ridiculously banking on his own telegram somehow diverting Bart away from killing the brother’s wife and kid as well. That made no sense.
None of the physics bothered me, but this story had some serious problems with character motivation intent and plot.

Changed man or not, what bugs me about Bart somehow surviving to go free, is not the physics of it, but what it says about Reid and Tonto who allowed it :confused:

[CindyR]

I'm leaning toward them assuming Bart would die. It occured to me before as well, that arresting him without evidence would have done no good at all. What could John do? Kill bart? [shakes head] Turn him in without evidence? [shrugs] Or leave him to live or die. If he lives, *maybe they figure they can wrap him up later after Butch rolls on him? all speculation. at this point you can take your pick of the above possibilities, or perhaps it was all of them together. the most significant to me was tonto's renouncing killing on his own in the scene by deciding that maybe he wasn't such a killer after all. this was before john set the rule, remember.

however, tonto's telegram to stop bart DID make sense to me. he knew what the killer was after, and it *wasn't the families. it was the lone ranger. tonto also knew that the killer would know that killing the remaining family would *not bring the ranger, but rather drive him further underground. leaving linda alive (answering the ranger's own challenge) was all bart wanted. he could always track her down again, after all, but killing her would have defeated the whole purpose of enabling the challenge.
i think tonto misread the boy's readiness, tho. tonto thought the boy would meet bart and die in the attempt; rather, john won.
Cindy


I agree, Bart may be a completely changed man after his encounter with Reid and Tonto (and I don’t just mean physically :p ). And the Telegram seems to confirm it. It still does not explain why Reid would allow him to go free.
I think they just assumed he would die, and underestimated his will.
But considering this guy would not have even blinked while shooting Reid’s brother’s wife and kid, that’s makes the ending somewhat shoddy.
Not to mention Tonto ridiculously banking on his own telegram somehow diverting Bart away from killing the brother’s wife and kid as well. That made no sense.
None of the physics bothered me, but this story had some serious problems with character motivation intent and plot.

Changed man or not, what bugs me about Bart somehow surviving to go free, is not the physics of it, but what it says about Reid and Tonto who allowed it :confused:

[Guicho]

From what we were shown, there’s just no way Tonto could have predicted Bart wouldn’t just murder her and her son like he did all the others. Bart didn’t have to kill any of the wives and kids to draw out the Ranger did he? He just had to find out which Ranger had survived. Not to mention this is a guy who seemed to get off on going back and doing whatever with the corpses, he was obviously into it.
No way a telegram was going to stop that.
I get it at the end were supposed to believe Bart is some kind of honorable fallen soul, the new Lone Ranger even carries his shiny guns just to homage the corpse skinning, murdering, necropheliak, woohoo!

No I’m kidding, I see what Matthews was trying to convey, and it makes her look all the stronger for holding her ground and facing the devil. It just didn’t ring true for me because while Tonto knows this nut job is having tea with Dan’s wife and kid, he is busying himself dyeing Johns new suit baby blue for when he’s “ready!.”
At the least he could of sent a note saying “get the hell out of the house, the living devil incarnate just murdered all your husbands colleagues wives and kids and he’s a comin’ for you next! Or whatever you can serve him tea and crumpets and please hand him my note. XOXO"

[tonto]

Taking into account John's sense of justice letting Bart live if not perfect would be the better of all evils. I still think that Bart as bait is a tactic LR and Tonto could be using because if Butch wanted no witnesses he sure has heck would have to tie up Bart as a loose end. A one eyed probably crippled man isn't much use on a chain gang and I think his hand is pretty much useless so his gunfighting days if not over are limited.
Jail or no jail Barts old life looks to be over. John after taking someones pride number one and then the means of which to do evil could probably live with it. Tonto's knife if not providing a means of suicide is at least symbolically in regards to Tonto a tool of amputation (his killing nature) but who's to say it wasn't a bit more literal for Bart as a means to get out of the wreckage.

As for the guns.. don't look a gift .44 in the barrel.